On the state of GSHI, and the 'Scene' in general...

[OldSchoolGamer]

Sorry for ressurecting this old thread but I really like one of the ideas suggested in here:

Originally Posted by helder

better yet making guides to code hacking into videos with some good explanation, the written guides are great and all but with todays youtube craze and a video for every occasion we should capitalize on this and promote the video as well.

I think that idea is more likely to attract new hackers than anything else. When noobs think of hacking, they think that it must be difficult and don't feel like reading all these guides with terminology they are unfamiliar with etc. They get discouraged before even trying to learn. But if someone were to post a youtube video explaining how to hack, people will watch it, realize it's not that difficult, and want to learn more, join communities, contribute, etc.

[Parasyte]

Hey guys! It's been a year. How are things?

(Yes, this was a rhetorical question.)

[OldSchoolGamer]

Future gaming consoles will require the gamer to be online in order to play any and every game for that console. And there will be continuous software security patches that the gaming companies will implement in those game consoles. That kind of makes it almost impossible for doing some of the things mentioned in this thread. Therefore, I think that game hacking will be forced to stay with retro game consoles. What do you guys think?

[bungholio]

I think that game hacking will be forced to stay with retro game consoles.

I'm worried about that. If that ends up being the case, I just might say all other new consoles can go straight to hell. They can fix the cheating thing. Give us a console with no components to go online. Then you could play and cheat and not ruin everybody's online experience. Make the cheating tools detect if the PS3 does or doesn't have hardware to connect to the internet. If it doesn't, have fun cheating. But that will never happen, and I don't know why.

[Demonic722]

Therefore, I think that game hacking will be forced to stay with retro game consoles. What do you guys think?

All I have to say about that is being limited to 8bit writes can be pretty damn annoying.

[Parasyte]

You see, game console manufacturers lock down their hardware as a means of preventing piracy. But in the process, they are also stifling innovation, fair use, fair competition, and artistic expression by disallowing non-approved software such as homebrew games (aka unsigned code). That is just unacceptable, hence the modern phenomenon of "jailbreaking". Unfortunately, it is much easier* to pirate software than it is to run non-approved software. All of the locks that are added are merely taking away our rights as consumers, and do not do much to protect intellectual property.

But there is good news! Nothing is unhackable. There will always be something overlooked, something that can be exploited to gain privileges of running unsigned code. These machines are made by humans, after all, and humans are prone to err. It is also impossible to cover all edge cases, even when thoroughly and meticulously planned and implemented. Each lock also takes something of value away from the overall system; you can't prevent timing attacks (or hardware glitching) while keeping the system as fast and efficient as possible, nor can you disable code execution in writable memory pages while allowing self-modifying code (eg. JIT compilers). A system that is locked down too tight will be at a competitive disadvantage, which is a death sentence for any machine in this market.

Rest assured, there is a hole somewhere, it just takes time to find. And even when one hole is plugged, either another already exists, or a new one will be added in an update. I, for one, am not at all worried about hacking on future game consoles.

* A good example is the use of digital signatures to validate the authenticity of software: Commercial software is always signed, thus always "authentic". This includes pirated copies of commercial software; when commercial software is copied, its digital signatures are also copied along with it. Digital signatures do not prevent piracy. Digital signatures prevent non-approved software. Digital signatures prevent you from running free games and utilities, like cheat devices.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Rest assured, there is a hole somewhere, it just takes time to find. And even when one hole is plugged, either another already exists, or a new one will be added in an update. I, for one, am not at all worried about hacking on future game consoles.

I get what you are saying but...

"when one hole is plugged" ... meaning when a security software update patch. So you search and find a hole, and you exploit it by making a tool and learning how to use that tool to exploit it. You finally get it to work and you can hack for a day, a week, a month maybe. You spread the word so other hackers and gamers can hack and cheat as well for a day, a week, or a month maybe. Then the company plugs the hole with a security software update patch. Then you have to look for and find a different hole. You eventually find one, you have to make another tool or tweak the already existing tool and learn how to use it. You finally get it to work and you can hack again for a day, a week, a month maybe. The cycle continues...

So I ask, who's going to have the patience, motivation, persistence, etc. to constantly be doing that when their end result is that they can only hack/cheat for just a day, a week, or a month maybe and then have to start the whole process all over again? It's too much time and effort to invest when you can only enjoy the end result for a couple days/week before the company issues a security software update patch.

[Demonic722]

So I ask, who's going to have the patience, motivation, persistence, etc. to constantly be doing that when their end result is that they can only hack/cheat for just a day, a week, or a month maybe and then have to start the whole process all over again? It's too much time and effort to invest when you can only enjoy the end result for a couple days/week before the company issues a security software update patch.

The World May Never Know, but I'm pretty sure there's someone out there with too much free time that could dedicate that substantial amount of time to this.

[Lazy Bastard]

Parasyte: Well put.

As for the issue of continuously battling patches, I think the general method (a specific, popular hacking tool or set of tools, etc), would remain the same, and the address/value configuration will remain the same (even if artificially so as to counter various live encoding/encryption schemes, including ones designed and introduced to counter hacking and piracy), and the only people that will be required to be extremely patient and diligent will be those creating and constantly updating the hacking tools and low-level exploits required for those tool to properly operate. In other words, aside from the handful of elite innovators at the top, hackers won't have to chase security patches and learn new methods. Of course, immediately after the latest patch, hackers may have to wait patiently for those 'elite innovators' to beat the patch and update the popular hacking tools. But there will be ways of stopping patches from being automatically applied, and if the system requires patches to be applied for operation and uses a system of patch availability checking, hackers will find a way to defeat that system as well. The cycle continues.

If hacking were to become popular (and marketable) enough, one of the major console companies might consider doing just what I've been speaking of for nearly a decade...and what Bungholio mentioned on the last page of this thread: creating or allowing supervised creation of a hacking system, which has restrictions to disable online hacking, to eliminate piracy concerns, etc.

[CRACKdown]

The one thing we can always look forward to is the day when a new system comes out, when this happens the old system is basically free game as the company is not primarily concerned with it anymore. This has been the case historically, were we able to hack NES, SNES, Genesis, etc. in their heyday? Yes, but not to the degree that we were able to later. I believe this trend will continue, we just need to have patience.

[bungholio]

It's going to bug me forever. Why not just allow a second version of consoles with no hardware for connecting to the internet? Then have that console check to make sure it doesn't have the hardware. From there, allow a cheat device that cannot affect anything outside of a game's code. Who online would complain about that? Also have games have firmware updates in case there is an actual hack used for piracy. Cheaters couldn't piss people off online.

To this day I don't know why they've had such a stick up their asses about the console generations that had no online hardware. Nobody's being hurt offline. It's not like everybody is able to do what's in some games. Some people can win at button mashing, and some people couldn't do it if they were given an entire lifetime. It's not laziness, they truly just can't mash buttons fast enough. Other people have bad coordination and nothing in medical technology exists to fix that as far as I know. They get pissed when they are a moment too slow or their aim is just a little off. It's not a "practice makes perfect" sort of thing. They may have a disability that hinders them just enough, and it can't be fixed. Wouldn't that just anger you if a tricky jump in a Crash Bandicoot took everybody 1 or 2 tries, and it took you over 20 minutes of constantly dying. Maybe you have trouble with remembering some things, and when a boulder chases you in a Crash Bandicoot game, you keep accidentally keep falling in the same holes, running into the same enemy and dying, take a left path when you should have taken right, or missed those speed boost things and got run over.

Not all people are capable of doing anything thrown at them in a game. Maybe they'd need just a tiny tiny bit of help for a few things, and they just wanted to hear the game's story and/or maybe experience some of the gameplay. Game developers don't really take these things into account at this point, probably because I challenge seekers whining it isn't hard enough. I have yet to see a game have an options menu with things like turning off all flashing parts of games for people that have seizures when they see flashing light. No option for people that just can't mash buttons fast enough. I wouldn't even have a guess as to how to implement things into a game for people that are bad at memorizing things, unless they just go with a saving system like most pc games and allow you to save and load in the same exact place with the same exact conditions, just like emulator save states.

Many of the things would make everything too easy, but for people that actually care about challenges, they can crank up the the difficulty however they like. Maybe make easier options appear if you fail a few times, like how the Devil May Cry games did. Some games just flat out drove me insane. Trying to unlock the infinite devil trigger in Devil May Cry 1 on Dante Must Die! difficulty is one of the infuriating experiences you can endure in a video game. It's so damn hard it's a crime against humanity.


In any problem there is in a game, the 1 thing that could solve everything the game developers didn't is cheating software.

[Parasyte]

As for "the cycle continues", yes. That is to be expected. I'm reminded of a particular scene from Batman Begins...

Jim Gordon: What about escalation?
Batman: Escalation?
Jim Gordon: We start carrying semi automatics, they buy automatics, we start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor piercing rounds, and *you're* wearing a mask and jumping off rooftops. take this guy: armed robbery, double homicide. Got a taste for the theatrical, like you. Leaves a calling card.
Jim Gordon: [Gordon presents Batman with a clear plastic evidence bag containing what appears to be a single playing card; Batman turns it over to reveal a "Joker"]

[bungholio]

I just remembered another thing that was good about hacking. I can't believe I have forgotten this until now.

www.romhacking.net

What is one of my favorite things about this site and others like it? They have tools people submit to modify games in certain ways. Aside from that, I always loved it when people translated a game from 1 language to another. That place leads you to all kinds of different games that were never released in certain areas of the world, and didn't get translated for that reason. I've played Dragon Quest 5 for the SNES in English thanks to people modifying the game since it was only ever released in Japan. Same goes for Saya No Uta for the pc, it was only ever released in Japan. Thanks to people translating the games, many more people can play them. Even some things are translated by a group even though it was officially translated, with the official translation not being good. Many people have probably at some point in their lifetime read "All your base are belong to us!" I don't know what old Nintendo game that was, but I do know there have been badly translated games.

[Parasyte]

Trivia: It wasn't a Nintendo game. It was a Mega Drive game called Zero Wing.

[Pyriel]

As for the issue of continuously battling patches, I think the general method (a specific, popular hacking tool or set of tools, etc), would remain the same, and the address/value configuration will remain the same (even if artificially so as to counter various live encoding/encryption schemes, including ones designed and introduced to counter hacking and piracy), and the only people that will be required to be extremely patient and diligent will be those creating and constantly updating the hacking tools and low-level exploits required for those tool to properly operate. In other words, aside from the handful of elite innovators at the top, hackers won't have to chase security patches and learn new methods. Of course, immediately after the latest patch, hackers may have to wait patiently for those 'elite innovators' to beat the patch and update the popular hacking tools. But there will be ways of stopping patches from being automatically applied, and if the system requires patches to be applied for operation and uses a system of patch availability checking, hackers will find a way to defeat that system as well. The cycle continues.

If hacking were to become popular (and marketable) enough, one of the major console companies might consider doing just what I've been speaking of for nearly a decade...and what Bungholio mentioned on the last page of this thread: creating or allowing supervised creation of a hacking system, which has restrictions to disable online hacking, to eliminate piracy concerns, etc.

Well, console manufacturers seem to be of the opinion that knowingly relaxing security of one sort is tantamount to handing hackers a loaded gun. If a company had a second line of consoles, with online play disabled, and the signature checks removed, someone at their head offices would have the job of gnashing his teeth and worrying about the day when the hacker virus would mutate and cross-infect the flagship line. Maybe someday they'll do an analysis, and find that what money they'd lose in piracy with fewer restrictions is less than what they lose now when combined with the money and time spent trying to prevent it, and the customers lost because they're turned off by obtrusive security. If there's no money in it, I don't see them considering anything.

Regarding the ongoing search for better exploits and holes in new patches, one problem that crops up is a tendency for the elite innovators to compartmentalize their work and their knowledge. Sometimes it's to protect what they know from the companies, and sometimes it's ego, but very often only tidbits are available publicly, and a privileged few actually know the details. Security patches may be defeated with regularity for a while, but eventually there's a long period of stagnation when someone with key knowledge gets a new job or wife or something of that nature. If you're a person who blocks automatic updates, or otherwise takes pains to keep your system hackable, you're fine. The less savvy users that are, in effect, the consumers of our products are the people who get screwed.